RALETC Official Results of Veil G5 - Testing - Part 2

[Veil Guy]

The problem with doing this handheld is though is that you can't be consistent in targeting from run to run, unless you have a tripod mount with motors that can mimic movement of the human hand and "replay" exactly the same movement from run to run, as well as a car that's guided by some system (perhaps magnets in the ground) that feeds its position and distance to the mount such that it targets the EXACT same place on the car at EXACTLY the same distance in multiple runs.

Understood for conduction staged (and repeatable) runs. However that targeting it NOT representative of what's done in the real-world. I haven't seen tripod mounting for more than a decade. These latest guns are specifically designed to be hand-held. Like with any CM testing, they're performance will always tend to be better in the real-world. Those here can discount Veil's efficacy, but for those willing to actually use it in the real-world, these are the results I want to see. People don't get issued tickets on closed course testing.

We'll see if we can figure more out with Mirage and his setup and if we can improve in some way, we'll see what we can do. I am still looking forward to tests that are more representative of how lidar is used by LEOs, but with Veil alone and then with jammers on a variety of vehicles and against a variety of guns. That's going to take time though. But, I can be a patient guy.

VG

[Yellowcab]

LEOs rarely free hand when they shoot lidar. They may not be resting the LIDAR on a tripod, but they will rest the LIDAR on the window sill against the door jam, on top of the steering wheel or another stable platform. I would like to clarify that when we use a tripod for testing, LIDAR is not attached to the tripod. We use the tripod as a stable platform to rest the LIDAR upon.

To me the use of a tripod as an explaination of the performance of Veil in this test isn't valid.

We have used tripods in he past on vehicles equipped with Veil G4 and a laser jammer in the past with excellent performance results from the jammer/Veil G4 combination. Just look at the results from member Fox in the Hole from our last jammer meet.

[awj223]

LEOs rarely free hand when they shoot lidar. They may not be resting the LIDAR on a tripod, but they will rest the LIDAR on the window sill against the door jam, on top of the steering wheel or another stable platform. I would like to clarify that when we use a tripod for testing, LIDAR is not attached to the tripod. We use the tripod as a stable platform to rest the LIDAR upon.

Should have paid closer attention to the video. Looking at it again, it is apparent that the gun wasn't held steady in a tripod mount. I've found it difficult to ever lock onto anything farther than 300-500' away using the TSS handheld. The longest locks I've gotten (2100', which exceeds the advertised range of the gun) were when I was parked at a sort of "T" intersection aiming down the stem of the "T" with the driver's window open and the gun resting against the door.

[tawwwd]

Understood for conduction staged (and repeatable) runs. However that targeting it NOT representative of what's done in the real-world. I haven't seen tripod mounting for more than a decade. These latest guns are specifically designed to be hand-held. Like with any CM testing, they're performance will always tend to be better in the real-world. Those here can discount Veil's efficacy, but for those willing to actually use it in the real-world, these are the results I want to see. People don't get issued tickets on closed course testing.

We'll see if we can figure more out with Mirage and his setup and if we can improve in some way, we'll see what we can do. I am still looking forward to tests that are more representative of how lidar is used by LEOs, but with Veil alone and then with jammers on a variety of vehicles and against a variety of guns. That's going to take time though. But, I can be a patient guy.

VG

LEOs rarely free hand when they shoot lidar. They may not be resting the LIDAR on a tripod, but they will rest the LIDAR on the window sill against the door jam, on top of the steering wheel or another stable platform. I would like to clarify that when we use a tripod for testing, LIDAR is not attached to the tripod. We use the tripod as a stable platform to rest the LIDAR upon.

To me the use of a tripod as an explaination of the performance of Veil in this test isn't valid.

We have used tripods in he past on vehicles equipped with Veil G4 and a laser jammer in the past with excellent performance results from the jammer/Veil G4 combination. Just look at the results from member Fox in the Hole from our last jammer meet.

Tripod mounts are used in just about every speed trap I've seen here.

If it's not a speed trap but a single LEO tagging people he is like above, resting it steadily on a hard surface.

That video you posted VG proves absolutely nothing about Veil and shows the V1 picking up laser. Nothing from the police perspective. Even the guy filming says he wasn't speeding so that is in absolutely zero way a save of any kind or showing how Veil worked as advertised.

[awj223]

Tripod mounts are used in just about every speed trap I've seen here.

If it's not a speed trap but a single LEO tagging people he is like above, resting it steadily on a hard surface.

That video you posted VG proves absolutely nothing about Veil and shows the V1 picking up laser. Nothing from the police perspective. Even the guy filming says he wasn't speeding so that is in absolutely zero way a save of any kind or showing how Veil worked as advertised.

Don't some LEOs keep shooting to see if the car accelerates? Given that most cars don't even have detectors, most drivers would be oblivious to the fact that they're even being targeted. The fact that you're continuing to be hit doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't get a speed reading...

[The Only Sarge]

First I want to thank Mirage for making the effort and I am going to take the advice of some here not to get into any significant back and forth, contentious our otherwise.

With respect to the targeting, tripod mounts make it much harder on CMs used and is not representative of what happens in the real-world. I saw tripod mounting of police lasers more than 10 years ago when the lidar guns were huge and unwieldy. Hand holding as is done today should have an impact further reducing PTs that occur regardless of the guns used. I know that some of you are questioning Roy's results. I believe YC will have another shot at the same C7 that was tested with him doing the same hand-holding targeting. It would be most interesting to see the relative differences between Roy's ability versus YC's. I believe Mirage when he has the time will re-run these (I would hope without the tape, because it doesn't even look like it was coated consistently anyway) with the guns he has in his possession in a handheld fashion. I would expect to see improvements. As I expressed to Mirage when he shared his experiences, I was expecting better outcomes. I can only attribute this to tripod absolutely rock-steady setups. The other thing I would like to do is to get a better handle on his reflective profile. Seeing some improvement with the tape (even not fully and evenly painted), suggests to me that there are indeed other areas of the vehicle (beyond the lights) that are contributing to his PTs that these latest guns are capitalizing upon. It's also going to be interesting how its going to do against the LTI LRBs, TruSpeeds, older Stalkers, etc. I recall the PL4 we do quite well with too. All I am going to ask is to consider these other factors. If there is something unforeseen with G5 (over G4) which would be adversely impacting its performance over G4 (which I sincerely doubt), we'll address it and I anticipate Mirage's feedback to be helpful in that regard. We will continue to communicate with Mirage as we figure out the dynamics at play here. I was expecting much better, candidly, and so I am very interested in understanding why it didn't show better. One way or another, we'll figure that one out.

I have also asked Mirage to actually drive with G5 in the real-world and document his experiences on the road. This is what we're really interested in seeing.



Cheers.

VG

On a human level we all would like to see you succeed Bob. It is human nature. Folks (including myself) want to see the little guy win.
However this will not float by without me wondering who shit in the pool.
Listen....you stated hand held wasn't "fair" because the operator couldnt hold the gun straight and it was hitting parts of the car without Veil. Now your saying Oh mercy me a tripod isn't fair.......bullshit....just the opposite Bob.....he could target only the parts of the car with Veil. In this case the entire damn front end was veiled/tapped/smothered/slathered in Veil G5. DragonCam and Poliscan are tripod mounted in the wild anyway.....Laser Jammers dont care if a gun is hand held or tripod mounted now do they?
Now you want Mirage to test in the real world? Seriously.....you make significant and definitive claims on your web site. You boast of Radar Roys "test" with no HUD nothing. So you wish to toot your horn with Roys test but a unbiased test with WELL DOCUMENTED parameters you deny? Now after testing, that frankly should have put your product in the absolute best light, it is shown to be basically worthless and your claims even of lesser value. Mirages test went above and beyond in the "real world" using real Veil, applied to your specs, using real world gun on real world cars driving on real world roads. How in the hell would a person using Veil even know if it helped in a real encounter anyway? You going to interview the cop?
Your product has been shown for what it is.
Your response is lame. I am embarrassed for you.....

[The Only Sarge]

First I want to thank Mirage for making the effort and I am going to take the advice of some here not to get into any significant back and forth, contentious our otherwise. ........

Cant do that Bob. Sorta like saying "I'm only gonna stick it in a lil bit".....you rung the bell....cannot unring the bell.

[Tman]

'' Baseline run was done without tape and no Veil. The first two passes were done with very little tape only covering the Logo, Badge and turn signals.''

Mirage i wonder why the turn signals were covered ? They were covered with the blue tape or with Veil or veiled blue tape ?

In either case in real life turn signals are very good reflector therefore should not be ignored (to represent real life) , so the difference should be even less ....or am i missing something ?

[The Only Sarge]

'' Baseline run was done without tape and no Veil. The first two passes were done with very little tape only covering the Logo, Badge and turn signals.''

Mirage i wonder why the turn signals were covered ? They were covered with the blue tape or with Veil or veiled blue tape ?

In either case in real life turn signals are very good reflector therefore should not be ignored (to represent real life) , so the difference should be even less ....or am i missing something ?

The test was the absolute best possible environment and scenario for Veil to perform and it failed even in that environment.

[Mirage]

'' Baseline run was done without tape and no Veil. The first two passes were done with very little tape only covering the Logo, Badge and turn signals.''

Mirage i wonder why the turn signals were covered ? They were covered with the blue tape or with Veil or veiled blue tape ?

In either case in real life turn signals are very good reflector therefore should not be ignored (to represent real life) , so the difference should be even less ....or am i missing something ?

The reason we covered the turn signals (and coated the tape in Veil) was because VG said the head lights were enough to get good performance and due to the way the turn signals are on the Camaro it was too much of a risk to install it directly. While I was willing to try for the sake of the community I didn't want to damage my expensive vehicle especially since it was going to be difficult to remove. I was skeptical about the easy removal based on the other claims. I tested removing from the headlamp assembly and it was not easy to remove. Took some real elbow grease. I wasn't willing to do that again on that area of the car but the head lights I didn't have much choice. Won can attest it would have been a pain in the ass on the turn signals.