[FURIOUS] ALP is only jamming when signal is detected

That may not sound like an illogical thing, but I would expect that once a threat is detected, that it would send out that jamming signal for 4 seconds (or as configured).

I would NOT expect it to stop and start as I release and pull the trigger of my prolaser.

http://youtu.be/5Px3nnaU9s0

Or, to put it another way, I would not expect "Pro Mode" to also apply to the laser.

"By enabling Pro Mode, when laser interference is detected LED will blink only while you are being targeted."

It's just common sense. Just because you've lost direct sight of the IR signal, doesn't mean it's still not crawling around the front of your car.

Latest firmware (as of 2 days ago) Australian Edition. setup.alp attached, please LMK if you need anything else. If this is SOP, I'll go back to using my LE-10. That gave me 5 seconds, but at least it was a solid 5 seconds.

Attachment 3351

That's not the way ALP works.
Its a smart jammer and only jams when required to the set seconds.
Its better that way :)

Also you would be surprised how much lidar spreads at a distance, not to mention the ALP kick ass receivers

you in Australia?

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Originally Posted by orwellophile

That may not sound like an illogical thing, but I would expect that once a threat is detected, that it would send out that jamming signal for 4 seconds (or as configured).

I would NOT expect it to stop and start as I release and pull the trigger of my prolaser.

http://youtu.be/5Px3nnaU9s0

Or, to put it another way, I would not expect "Pro Mode" to also apply to the laser.

"By enabling Pro Mode, when laser interference is detected LED will blink only while you are being targeted."

It's just common sense. Just because you've lost direct sight of the IR signal, doesn't mean it's still not crawling around the front of your car.

Latest firmware (as of 2 days ago) Australian Edition. setup.alp attached, please LMK if you need anything else. If this is SOP, I'll go back to using my LE-10. That gave me 5 seconds, but at least it was a solid 5 seconds.

Attachment 3351

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The ALP is a smart jammer not a brute force jammer. It works much differently than the LE10. The ALP is much more sensitive than the LE10. If the alp doesn't detect a LIDAR signal, it isn't there. Now if you are shooting your own car from less than 100 feet away it is possible to shoot your car without the alp picking up the signal, but LE will shoot you at much greater distances, and the size of the beam of the LIDAR gun will be much larger and easier to detect. The ALP gives you much more protection than the LE10 ever did.

As others have already said these are SMART jammers and will only Jam when needed. If nothing is coming at you then there is no need to send something back. I would put the ALP up against your LE-10 any day.

What ^^^ they said, also you could turn pro mode off and the alp will then jam for time duration set or until you jtk.

I thought Pro Mode was only for Radar.
So is it best to turn it off for best peace of mind detection?

Turning off pro mode just makes the jammer continue ALERTING for a few seconds after the shooting ends. It doesn't cause jamming pulses to be sent when none are being received from the gun.

Smart jammers have to synchronize their jamming pulses to the gun's pulses in order to jam properly. As a result, it has to receive pulses in order to respond to them. Plus it extends the life of the laser diode, and reduces the chances of throwing a jam code on the gun.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. I'd thought it continued on in the lid time frame except for unlimited.

'' and reduces the chances of throwing a jam code on the gun. ''

which is a quite important feature , hard to appreciate since we have no feed back ,
unless the cop runs after you even after a quick Jtk ...then the fun ends there.

Not to mention if the lidar gun trigger is pulsed and the jammer didn't start and restart it would result in an instant punch through because the timing would be off.

Just for clarification, it detects the first pulse and in a matter of (which unit goes here?) seconds before the next pulse comes it (matches or calculates cancellation pulses?) and jams?

While I recently became aware of the smart method, I still don't completely understand it. Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread.

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Originally Posted by hussein

Just for clarification, it detects the first pulse and in a matter of (which unit goes here?) seconds before the next pulse comes it (matches or calculates cancellation pulses?) and jams?

While I recently became aware of the smart method, I still don't completely understand it. Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread.

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Yep start a new thread in advanced and it can be discussed.

so what happens when you get close enough that the beam no longer impacts the sensor, I don't see how you could get JTG.

the beam width of the lidar could easily miss the sensor, especially if u put two sensors midway between plate and headlights. (not something I'd ever do, but it's done)

as for keeping sync with the lidar, I've read the patents, it knows the pulse rate, and constantly adjusts for minor variations caused by changes in velocity, it can adjust it again next time it measures two pulses. in the mean time. it can either keep the last freq or apply the last known delta velocity "blindly" . it can't be worse than sending nothing

Hussein, yes I'd be happy to supply some diagrams if not actual sampled data for a new thread.

I don't think I have ever seen a pt with alp not firing while in unlimited mode, tracking target from 900m right to 5m. It didn't miss a beat even with stop start stop start with my stalker.
Alp heads are pretty sensitive.
I've shot street signs 500m in front of my car while driving and they have gone off.
Same with just aiming for my front right headlight with all heads covered apart from the front left at 5m up to 200m and it still reacts.
Your ideas while maybe valid with older jammers, do not apply to current gen smart jammers.
Hell I ever detect poliscan units at 400-500m back due to scatter.
And no one is going to keep speeding once targeted, by the time Mr poo poo fires at another target, you would hopefully be under the psl.


But in all fairness, test your self and you will see what we have experienced with our own testing.

Looking forward to hearing back for you.

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Originally Posted by orwellophile

so what happens when you get close enough that the beam no longer impacts the sensor, I don't see how you could get JTG.

the beam width of the lidar could easily miss the sensor, especially if u put two sensors midway between plate and headlights. (not something I'd ever do, but it's done)

as for keeping sync with the lidar, I've read the patents, it knows the pulse rate, and constantly adjusts for minor variations caused by changes in velocity, it can adjust it again next time it measures two pulses. in the mean time. it can either keep the last freq or apply the last known delta velocity "blindly" . it can't be worse than sending nothing

Hussein, yes I'd be happy to supply some diagrams if not actual sampled data for a new thread.

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I believe once they detect LIDAR, jammers will send a few pulses by keeping the timing of the last few pulses received and sending out the some pulses "blindly". But then they stop to sample the incoming pulses again (it's very hard to transmit and receive signals at the same time, and in fact, if the transmitted pulse comes at the exact same time as the received pulse, the transmitter would likely overwhelm the receiver and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between your own pulse and a pulse from the LIDAR gun). So it can be worse than sending nothing, because you could miss some incoming pulses and fail to jam the gun at all.

But remember that:
1. The timing of the returned pulses must be accurate to within nanoseconds in order to jam the gun
2. Sending "a few" pulses (say, 10-20) to a gun that's operating at, say, 200pps, would take only 0.05 to 0.1 seconds. It's extremely hard for humans looking at a flashing LED to perceive this. Sending out more pulses beyond that is likely to be useless without resetting the time reference by receiving more pulses. Remember, the inter-pulse spacing is a few milliseconds and the returned pulses must be accurate to within nanoseconds.

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Originally Posted by awj223

I believe once they detect LIDAR, jammers will send a few pulses by keeping the timing of the last few pulses received and sending out the some pulses "blindly". But then they stop to sample the incoming pulses again (it's very hard to transmit and receive signals at the same time, and in fact, if the transmitted pulse comes at the exact same time as the received pulse, the transmitter would likely overwhelm the receiver and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between your own pulse and a pulse from the LIDAR gun). So it can be worse than sending nothing, because you could miss some incoming pulses and fail to jam the gun at all.

But remember that:
1. The timing of the returned pulses must be accurate to within nanoseconds in order to jam the gun
2. Sending "a few" pulses (say, 10-20) to a gun that's operating at, say, 200pps, would take only 0.05 to 0.1 seconds. It's extremely hard for humans looking at a flashing LED to perceive this. Sending out more pulses beyond that is likely to be useless without resetting the time reference by receiving more pulses. Remember, the inter-pulse spacing is a few milliseconds and the returned pulses must be accurate to within nanoseconds.

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Mostly wrong. But as they say at kid's sporting events, "Good try."

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Originally Posted by FJR1300

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. I'd thought it continued on in the lid time frame except for unlimited.

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Early LIs did that until the old H-Town Trapsters found it during testing. It was a fatal flaw that allowed us to get instant PT at will until it was fixed. You sure you want that in your ALP?

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Originally Posted by Yellowcab

Mostly wrong. But as they say at kid's sporting events, "Good try."

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Be nice at least he tried.


Transmitting and receiving at the same time is not the issue. The issue is always timing. PERIOD! If you want to learn the basics we can start a thread in an advanced section, but I don't want to talk about any of this in public.

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Originally Posted by Won Hunglo

Early LIs did that until the old H-Town Trapsters found it during testing. It was a fatal flaw that allowed us to get instant PT at will until it was fixed. You sure you want that in your ALP?

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Haha, nope. I'm perfectly happy with how ALP works, was just a misunderstanding on my part about pro mode. Definitely makes sense now as to why that would not work.

I have only one complaint ...

Since my HiFi was installed dec 31 2014 ...i got not one single alert , where with the
beeper control set , it was 2 to 3 a week :rofl-1:

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Be nice at least he tried.


Transmitting and receiving at the same time is not the issue. The issue is always timing. PERIOD! If you want to learn the basics we can start a thread in an advanced section, but I don't want to talk about any of this in public.

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Was on my phone. Didn't have time to make the corrections.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Not to mention if the lidar gun trigger is pulsed and the jammer didn't start and restart it would result in an instant punch through because the timing would be off.

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My testing has shown that after receiving a brief pulse (fast as I could pull the trigger), the unit still returns to "green" mode after timing out, and then you're waiting a minute (haven't timed it) before it's armed "blue" again.

(I was measuring the outputs and pulling the trigger during "green" mode, not just trusting the color of the LEDs).

I didn't repeat the test, but can add it to my list of things to do (and film) if you believe this is not the current behaviour.

Thanks to whomever pointed out that there is an "unlimited mode", and I also would like to move this to a more private area as I'm skirting the line between "helping ALP users" and "helping the po' po'" :p It's just that I don't have access to any advanced areas.

Question: does the ALP fire ALL front lasers when it detects a threat on a single sensor?
Question: nobody is claiming that ALP is actually a good (or even average) parking sensor right?

BTW, I'm not recommending any other jammer other than the ALP.

Just highlighting some issues that could be fixed (or made optional) in a firmware update (if such was the group consensus), or failing that, describing the ALPs behaviour in "edge" situations so we can all be better prepared.

I (now) understand that "unlimited mode" would render these things moot, but I'm making a point of running these tests in factory default mode (apart from pro mode, to save my ears).

And a shout-out to yellowcab for pointing out the incorrectness of a previous post someone made on how jammers operate. I have a 4 second recorded sample (in video, and in graphical form) showing that the ALP hits every pulse (starting from the first) with precise identical timing (YMMV, if you actually decide to put your ALP in a car. I can only describe the behaviour on my workbench).

Still not sure what your concern is? If you have it at 4 second defence it will alert you and stop defending after 4 seconds and then reset 60 seconds later as it was designed. If after you receive scatter or a direct hit you need to slow and get ready for the LID timeout.

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Originally Posted by BestRadarDetectors

Still not sure what your concern is? If you have it at 4 second defence it will alert you and stop defending after 4 seconds and then reset 60 seconds later as it was designed. If after you receive scatter or a direct hit you need to slow and get ready for the LID timeout.

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This is why the auto kill function is the best part of ALP (outside of it's capabilities). Doesn't allow JTG if set right......

Eventually we might have to remove unlimited jamming if we can't trust folks to use it responsibly.

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Originally Posted by BestRadarDetectors

Eventually we might have to remove unlimited jamming if we can't trust folks to use it responsibly.

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That would really suck, high speeds and getting safely down to psl can require more time. The number one job of a jammer is to stop the leo from getting a reading, everything after that is secondary.
I completely understand the concern of jtg and possible consequences, but if a ticket is ever received because lid timed out, the jammer has not done it's primary job, actually it's only job.

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Originally Posted by FJR1300

That would really suck, high speeds and getting safely down to psl can require more time. The number one job of a jammer is to stop the leo from getting a reading, everything after that is secondary.
I completely understand the concern of jtg and possible consequences, but if a ticket is ever received because lid timed out, the jammer has not done it's primary job, actually it's only job.

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At the same time if people play games JTG'ing there might not be a future for Jammer's. People need to use them wisely, In many countries there is no Unlimited Mode like we have in the US. In reality if we fixed the max at 9 Seconds like it is in Australia and other countries if you dont slow in that amount of time you would deserve a ticket.

If you think about it, the localities where jammers are illegal are much less likely to experience jtg, especially Canada and Australia, they have too much to lose.

9 seconds should be plenty on 4 wheels, but keep in mind that one cannot simply slam on the brakes and drop anchor on a bike in a curve, especially at triple digits. And the last thing I want to worry about when I get an alert, is whether or not I beat the timer, I'm already at a disadvantage because the heads are tilted when the bike is leaned over.

Anyway, not trying to argue about it, just bringing to light the differences between riding and driving with alp.

Have there been reports of people jtg for fun? The op in this thread is in Australia I think, but I can see his point; you get an alert, leo releases trigger, then retriggers while you're in 1 minute reset mode, now what? If that 1 minute period can be eliminated with the timer in place, I think that would alleviate the op's concern without unlimited lid time.

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Originally Posted by FJR1300

If you think about it, the localities where jammers are illegal are much less likely to experience jtg, especially Canada and Australia, they have too much to lose.

9 seconds should be plenty on 4 wheels, but keep in mind that one cannot simply slam on the brakes and drop anchor on a bike in a curve, especially at triple digits. And the last thing I want to worry about when I get an alert, is whether or not I beat the timer, I'm already at a disadvantage because the heads are tilted when the bike is leaned over.

Anyway, not trying to argue about it, just bringing to light the differences between riding and driving with alp.

Have there been reports of people jtg for fun? The op in this thread is in Australia I think, but I can see his point; you get an alert, leo releases trigger, then retriggers while you're in 1 minute reset mode, now what? If that 1 minute period can be eliminated with the timer in place, I think that would alleviate the op's concern without unlimited lid time.

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It it Jammed every new pull of the trigger that would be unlimited jamming... The timer is designed to get your attention and give you time to slow. Not sure about everyone else but I have no issue taking it easy for 60 seconds after a real save.

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Originally Posted by FJR1300

I completely understand the concern of jtg and possible consequences, but if a ticket is ever received because lid timed out, the jammer has not done it's primary job, actually it's only job.

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If you can't drop your speed in 4 seconds after an alert (ok, give it a couple more if on a fast motorcycle), you have bigger problems than needing unlimited jamming. 9 seconds is way too long, that's as bad as a JTG, and many times you'll have passed the cop before then anyway.

The 60 second timer shouldn't be an issue either (though IMHO I think it should be adjustable, I prefer 30 seconds), since once you've slowed and JTKed you'll presumably wait until you're out of the danger zone before speeding up again, with or without jammers. It's great to have all this built into the ALP already, so it just happens (well, ideally you'd hit the button to kill). With other jammers you have to shut them off completely or (in the case of the HP-905) switch to receive mode and then remember to switch it back on after you've passed the threat. With the ALP, you slow, hit one button, drive past and in 60 seconds you're protected again.

Unlimited mode is intended for testing, not for use in the wild. If you do use it, you have to make sure you JTK *every* time. Even if you set a LID time of say 4 seconds, it's still best to JTK manually since in most encounters you should be able to slow & kill in under 3 seconds.

I even developed a device that adds a similar auto-kill feature to my LI. I can JTK with a button push like with the ALP, and I even have it wired to the brake so it can kill the LI automatically after releasing the brakes during a jam. And it also turns the LI back on after 30 seconds (or whatever time I set it to). If/when I upgrade to ALP I won't need this device anymore.

I don't want to drag this out any more than neccessary, I have thought about lid time extensively in reference to speeds that I commonly reach, which can easily be psl +100 and as I posted above, you do not have the option of slamming on the brakes if you're in a curve or in a sweeper, if you do, the bike will stand up and go straight and you'll likely die.

I agree with you guys in typical scenarios, such as in a car, 20 or 30 over, no problem there. And it would be easier for me to have auto kill as I could keep both hands on the bars. I rarely see lidar, but do not jtg, I do not want to attract any more attention than I already do.

http://radarandlaserforum.com/showthread.php?t=6685

You guys are talking so much about JTK, and by all means I live and die by it but if your concerned about it becoming an issue then ALP should have thought twice about allowing RR to sell it. Everybody who buys it from him will JTG.

I'm sorry to have to keep repeating it but it's going to happen and we will all pay the price down the road for the masses who will be only JTG all the time.

I'm beating a dead horse, but this was a very low blow to this community when RR was given access to selling and advertising it. Wake up people. See the writing on the wall.

ALP should force JTK at 4 -5 seconds for everyone who's not an enthusiast like most of us here are.

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Originally Posted by OrlNmE

You guys are talking so much about JTK, and by all means I live and die by it but if your concerned about it becoming an issue then ALP should have thought twice about allowing RR to sell it. Everybody who buys it from him will JTG.

I'm sorry to have to keep repeating it but it's going to happen and we will all pay the price down the road for the masses who will be only JTG all the time.

I'm beating a dead horse, but this was a very low blow to this community when RR was given access to selling and advertising it. Wake up people. See the writing on the wall.

ALP should force JTK at 4 -5 seconds for everyone who's not an enthusiast like most of us here are.

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It has nothing to do with who sells the unit. ALL units would be shipped from us regardless and proper instructions would be included. The point is many customers including those that know how to use them WILL still do it because some think its just fun. This would be the case NO MATTER who sold them a unit. Guys need to get over the decision to allow Roy to sell them because the issue has been happening long before Roy was even involved.

RR sells the LSP, no? Are you boycotting Escort?

Who's boycotting ALP.?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...2fceede3b7.jpg

FJR1300, Nice post!! I like it where it says I want to boycott Escort. I need to learn how to read English better because I cant read that part of it.

With all due respects Tom at BRD, I understand your point, and thanks for being diplomatic and respectful about it.

FJR1300 I wont stoop myself to your level. I am one of the few people who isn't afraid of voicing the truth about how many of us feel about RR. Your his Admin, so I can see why your usually defending him. For what ever it's worth, I'm over it. I do like a good argument once in a while at a respectable level as BRD does. I never argue with him because he says it like it is, in a diplomatic way without trying to put someone down directly. Smart guy!!


Moving on......

So on another note, I didn't know that all units shipped directly from BRD. I thought RR buys them from you and sells them directly to his peeps. In addition, your right about people wanting to JTG for the fun of it, and that is not cool. So what do you think can be done to prevent that or is that really one of those situations that it is what it is?

Hilarious, I didn't accuse you of boycotting Escort, I guess I agree with your self assessment of reading skill.

It clearly states in your post that you probably wouldn't have bought the ALP if you had known RR would be selling it.
Yep, that sounds like you're supportive of AL.

At least have the courage to man up and admit what you clearly wrote.

You won't stoop to my level? So you didn't just say that I was RR'S admin? Gtfo

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Originally Posted by specifics

This is why the auto kill function is the best part of ALP (outside of it's capabilities). Doesn't allow JTG if set right......

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I have mine set to 4 seconds, and I still use my kill switch if I reach reasonable speeds before the time to stop jamming occurs.

I can see ALP forcing the time limit and only allowing testers the opportunity to JTG or something like that. This one will be a tough one to resolve and prevent the JTG.

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Originally Posted by OrlNmE

FJR1300, Nice post!! I like it where it says I want to boycott Escort. I need to learn how to read English better because I cant read that part of it.

With all due respects Tom at BRD, I understand your point, and thanks for being diplomatic and respectful about it.

FJR1300 I wont stoop myself to your level. I am one of the few people who isn't afraid of voicing the truth about how many of us feel about RR. Your his Admin, so I can see why your usually defending him. For what ever it's worth, I'm over it. I do like a good argument once in a while at a respectable level as BRD does. I never argue with him because he says it like it is, in a diplomatic way without trying to put someone down directly. Smart guy!!


Moving on......

So on another note, I didn't know that all units shipped directly from BRD. I thought RR buys them from you and sells them directly to his peeps. In addition, your right about people wanting to JTG for the fun of it, and that is not cool. So what do you think can be done to prevent that or is that really one of those situations that it is what it is?

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To protect our interests and make sure units are shipped to actual customers in the US and the product is not exported or shipped to freight forwarders we ship all ALP orders. Now that we can move on from that subject and get back to the issue at hand I am tossed on the JTG issue and I am just waiting to see how it plays out. I can mandate the removal of the Unlimited Jamming if necessary. Some people are just odd characters and I have even spoken to customers of mine that called to brag how good the system worked and how the officers face was priceless. I of course explain that this is not the purchase of the device and not the proper way to use the device but it seems to go in one ear and out the other.

We are basically left with 2 choices... Leave things alone or remove the unlimited option. There are really no other options to the problem. I honestly feel that if you cant slow in 9 seconds while being targeted then its just as good as a JTG. The good thing is by default all systems are set to 4 seconds and many people run the ALP with the default settings.