RALETC Laser Jammer Meet RESULTS April 2014

[Yellowcab]

Here are some highlights.
Car without any jammers and with out Veil, LIDAR used DALA: 3900 feet
Same car with Veil on headlights and fog lights no license plate: 1300 feet

LI 8.15 vs. Truspeed S now is JTG. A big improvement from 8.14
LI 8.15 vs. DET Compact: No alert no jam
LI 8.15 vs DALA #5 no alert no jam
LI 8.15 vs Stalker XLR alert no jam
ALP vs. DALA #5 alert no jam
ALP vs. DET Compact: Winner: ALP by a knockout.
LI 8.15: We did not experience the TSS followed by IPT when shot with PL4 and PL3 and we shot the TSS for the first half of the run waited a few seconds and then shot it with a pl3 or pl4.


The shooter was located 41 feet from the drivers side of the testing vehicle. Course length for testing of laser jammers was approx. 1,000 feet.
For Veil testing the shooter was on axis. The length of the road was approx. 3,900 from end to shooter. Driver of test vehicle did not always turnaround at end of road, but would turn around approx. 3,000 feet to shooter.
On rear shots, Punch Throughs of under 100 feet are considered "green"



1621



1615



1606















One of the tests we ran was an on axis TSS vs. LI 8.15 to see if the TSS would JTG instead of giving routine PTs under 300 feet as the previous firmware. Firmware 8.15 resolves this issue.
DALA #5 has not been recorded or seen by any laser jammer manufacturer.

Veil reduced PTs on a non laser jammer equipped car. As a rule Veil did not protect well under 1000 feet. If you are routinely targeted over 1500 feet, Veil would work very well.
PL4 without veil 2400 feet. with Veil 1300 feet
Stalker XLR without Veil 1300 feet., with Veil 800 feet

[Holla]

Nice Job on the test! Veil is pretty impressive by itself and a great way to compliment a vehicle with jammers!

[Yellowcab]

Veil results:

Shooter was on axis. No jammers on car.

1580

* LIDAR WAS SILENT UNTIL PT.

[Vortex]

Great job with the test! That's a lot of work, a lot of guns, and a lot of runs. :) Impressive performance by the various jammers.

We ran an older Stalker in our test today too and it got some PT's as well. It's a pesky little sucker!

We actually did a pass shooting it against a Veiled car and were getting IPT's all the way, but we only started the run 1300 feet away, so it may have done better had we started from a longer distance. It's impressive to see its performance in your testing from roughly 800 feet on up.

[NYSpeederPVM]

Having a blast in Phoenix but wish I could have somehow gone today. Maybe a mini meet soon near the original location?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Veil Guy]

Veil results:

Shooter was on axis. No jammers on car.

1580

* LIDAR WAS SILENT UNTIL PT.



Nice Job on the test! Veil is pretty impressive by itself and a great way to compliment a vehicle with jammers!

You got it. Been my message all along! I feel these guys gave me a really thorough test of Veil, in fact, its most through ever!. First time coming up against these awesome new lasers, too.

Keep in mind, my metallic silver 5 series is like a worst case scenario so the reductions were limited by that primarily. More reasonable cars would have done better. Treating other areas with Veil beyond the lights made significant improvements beyond the 1200-1300 range when only the lights were treated.

Those who use 3M wraps on front treated with Veil should see significant further reductions.

The one 2300' Stalker run looks way out of place. That feels like something else was picked up (ie; scatter reflection or the one FOG that wasn't coated? Was a speed noted? Did it happen after that one reading?). CM at ~600 looks right, but our HL shots should have always been better than CM and the earlier Stalker models have been some of our best guns, even on that vehicle.

One a car like this with those kinds of colors against these guns that I saw yesterday I would want to use actives in combinations. I was pleased, however, that Veil was indeed effective against these lastest ECCM guns that the LIs proven ineffective against. As I have always maintained a defense-in-depth approach will always be the best approach even with vehicles that have two or three heads in front. Clearly no one CM was perfect.

However, from what I saw with my own two eyes, the ALP is without question was the new kid to beat! Its' performance (while not perfect) decimated all (other) comers. OK, OK. I have yet to see a K40 actually do much of anything in my years of attending these sorts of events and good luck finding anything about them on SML's site as they seem to always have something in the works that is not "ready" for testing. :p

Didn't see an HP- 905, either. That's going on the vehicle along side the ALPs. I don't see much of a reason at this point to even install LIs. DALAs are just next door now in DE and MD, so what would be the point? And the older jammers/shifters are coming off the car. Too many NAs from them. Their time has come and gone.

Valentine 1, as always did an exceptional job. The Whistler did very well and a new Cobra, I am testing, bested the Max in laser detection.

Very impressive and very well conducted test! I learned a lot from you guys! These guys deliver the goods and thanks for showing the results for exactly what they were! It also proved the extreme importance of perfectly aligning the jamming heads during your install and making sure they stay that way, should be routinely checked!

Tom, of BRD, it was great finally meeting you after all of these years! Nice ride, BTW. Your black sedan is definitely more stealth than my metallic silver. Maybe YC's right. Not sure of a Delorean though. I think a Cayman R (non-metallic black or dark ruby red) is more my speed (or maybe a Rapide/QuattroPorte). :)

Great job everyone and look forward to meeting up again! :)

I would love to see a motorcycle at one of these events. Should be a great candidate for Veiling. :)

VG

[radargeek]

So, does that mean 8.15 doesn't solve the XLR issue then?

Hopefully someone had the foresight to capture the pulse pattern of DALA #5 to send to AL. I thought they had a generic algo now.

Was there a DALA #3 and #4?

[Radarrob]

So, does that mean 8.15 doesn't solve the XLR issue then?

Hopefully someone had the foresight to capture the pulse pattern of DALA #5 to send to AL. I thought they had a generic algo now.

Was there a DALA #3 and #4?
8.15 doesn't solve the XLR issue.Instant PT,also Li no alert to ver 1and ver 2 compact instant PT.

[Yellowcab]

So, does that mean 8.15 doesn't solve the XLR issue then?

Hopefully someone had the foresight to capture the pulse pattern of DALA #5 to send to AL. I thought they had a generic algo now.

Was there a DALA #3 and #4?

DALA #3 is the same pulse train as DALA#2. Someone forgot to bring DALA#4.

The pulse train of DALA #5 is very different from previous DALAs and not the same as the Compact. My feeling is that AL changed some things in the firmware from the beta that Mirage tested and Sunday's test was the first test of this firmware vs. this DALA. If we would have given AL this DALA, I feel we wouldn't have had this issue. They haven't even seen a recording of this DALA. We will see what they will do and of course there will be more testing in the future. I know that this DALA can be jammed.

[RedRocket]

Here are some highlights.
Car without any jammers and with out Veil, LIDAR used DALA: 3900 feet
Same car with Veil on headlights and fog lights no license plate: 1300 feet


Well Color Me Impressed.....that is quite significant !


I agree this was truly impressive.
Well then,let me add some "icing-on-the-cake" to something I observed while sitting on the Starting Line(having completed my run) near the Shooters & waiting for those behind me to make their approaching runs coming at the Shooters.As we all well know,the (VR) V1 is an excellent Laser sensor.I always leave my V1 on during testing & I observed this every time Veil Guy made a run.The V1 would remain silent until VG was much,much closer than I would have expected for the V1 to do its job regarding refection return from the Lidar gun.There must have been considerable absorption taking place b/c the V1 remained silent... & not until VG got quite close did the V1 finally get enough reflected IR to activate an alert.

[RigToFly01]

Great results indeed. It was great meeting everyone. I had a great time yesterday except for the New Jersey traffic on the ride home, Honestly I don't know how people live in that state. :grumpy:
I have some Passport Max results to post. I will do them Tuesday afternoon when I get to work. Today is my day off and time with my Daughter. It was a solid 6 hours of runs to record all those results on my car. We did not take many breaks.
More later....

[itwasntme]

Fantastic test guys. Thank you for all the hard work. Many questions were answered. Very happy I made the move to the ALP. I suspect AL is already working on DALA#5......at least since yesterday. Was kind of hoping there was a generic algo for all DALA s myself. Prompts more questions. How many versions are out there? How easy and, cost effective is it to deceminate new DALA software versions?

I was about to ask what color the Veiled car was till Veil Guy answered my question. Those are impressive numbers for a metallic silver car. I have substantially Veiled previous cars that I've owned and, had the punch throughs down to the 700 ft to 750 ft range. When I got my current car, a metallic silver Ford Flex (wife vetoed the black one), I thought Veil application was pointless. I am now re examining that decision.

I'm working on a "stealth" motorcycle project now. Both the ALP and, Veil will be part of the equation.

[Veil Guy]

Great results indeed. It was great meeting everyone. I had a great time yesterday except for the New Jersey traffic on the ride home, Honestly I don't know how people live in that state. :grumpy:
I have some Passport Max results to post. I will do them Tuesday afternoon when I get to work. Today is my day off and time with my Daughter. It was a solid 6 hours of runs to record all those results on my car. We did not take many breaks.
More later....

I think it is safe to say that this is one of the most thorough and efficiently run tests that I have experienced. Impressive, very impressive arsenal of equipment and shooting talent.

VG

[Veil Guy]

Fantastic test guys. Thank you for all the hard work. Many questions were answered. Very happy I made the move to the ALP. I suspect AL is already working on DALA#5......at least since yesterday. Was kind of hoping there was a generic algo for all DALA s myself. Prompts more questions. How many versions are out there? How easy and, cost effective is it to deceminate new DALA software versions?

I was about to ask what color the Veiled car was till Veil Guy answered my question. Those are impressive numbers for a metallic silver car. I have substantially Veiled previous cars that I've owned and, had the punch throughs down to the 700 ft to 750 ft range. When I got my current car, a metallic silver Ford Flex (wife vetoed the black one), I thought Veil application was pointless. I am now re examining that decision.

I'm working on a "stealth" motorcycle project now. Both the ALP and, Veil will be part of the equation.

From now one, I am going to start showing Veil with a car less brutal than mine. It's like a worst case scenario. I honestly believe that metallic silver (with flecks, little mirrors) are worse than white. My wife's 'bru is a darker ruby red subaru. I think I should start testing that. Veil should definitely show better and now that I have seen my car over a decade against all of the guns I am ready for a change.

I was thrilled that my expectations of validated with the VPR and other ECCM guns. Doesn't matter what they throw at me, we absorb it all. :)

But this experience has definitely showed me once again that a defense in depth is the best way to go. I have no problem admitting it either. Veil is complimentary to ACMs not competitive. I hope that since we finally got a fair and thorough test, that I trust, hopefully the ACM community can see this as well. Thanks again RALETC. Great job, indeed! :)

VG

[Veil Guy]

Well then,let me add some "icing-on-the-cake" to something I observed while sitting on the Starting Line(having completed my run) near the Shooters & waiting for those behind me to make their approaching runs coming at the Shooters.As we all well know,the (VR) V1 is an excellent Laser sensor.I always leave my V1 on during testing & I observed this every time Veil Guy made a run.The V1 would remain silent until VG was much,much closer than I would have expected for the V1 to do its job regarding refection return from the Lidar gun.There must have been considerable absorption taking place b/c the V1 remained silent... & not until VG got quite close did the V1 finally get enough reflected IR to activate an alert.

Thanks for that RR. Never had an observation like that before, maybe another way to test it. LOL

Hope you had an uneventful trip back! Remember, next time, please feel welcomed to stay with Lisa and I. I am a great chef, btw. :)

VG

[Veil Guy]

Fantastic test guys. Thank you for all the hard work. Many questions were answered. Very happy I made the move to the ALP. I suspect AL is already working on DALA#5......at least since yesterday. Was kind of hoping there was a generic algo for all DALA s myself. Prompts more questions. How many versions are out there? How easy and, cost effective is it to deceminate new DALA software versions?

I was about to ask what color the Veiled car was till Veil Guy answered my question. Those are impressive numbers for a metallic silver car. I have substantially Veiled previous cars that I've owned and, had the punch throughs down to the 700 ft to 750 ft range. When I got my current car, a metallic silver Ford Flex (wife vetoed the black one), I thought Veil application was pointless. I am now re examining that decision.

I'm working on a "stealth" motorcycle project now. Both the ALP and, Veil will be part of the equation.

I can't wait to test an ALP/Veil combo. That should take all comers! :)

VG

[Yellowcab]

Veil results:

Shooter was on axis. No jammers on car.

1580

* LIDAR WAS SILENT UNTIL PT.

The 2300 PTs with the stalker, Veil Guy didn't Veil his fog light on the passanger side.

[TurboDriver]

What kind of vehicle did RedRocket have, how far apart are the heads? Seems to be a little more vulnerable at the center mass, which is unusual.

I am guessing Rig had the Prius and Patsy the Porsche or was it the Suburban...


I need to find someone to test my set-up, I'm worried the heads are too close together, knowing where others have the heads placed help me to have a little peace of mind till I know for sure.

I think I'll get some Veil to help out, I was impressed with the gains (loss) from it.

[Yellowcab]

What kind of vehicle did RedRocket have, how far apart are the heads? Seems to be a little more vulnerable at the center mass, which is unusual.

I am guessing Rig had the Prius and Patsy the Porsche or was it the Suburban...


I need to find someone to test my set-up, I'm worried the heads are too close together, knowing where others have the heads placed help me to have a little peace of mind till I know for sure.

I think I'll get some Veil to help out, I was impressed with the gains (loss) from it.

RedRocket's heads were found not to be level which caused the PTs.

[Tman]

RedRocket's heads were found not to be level which caused the PTs.

This is the reason i suggested to take a pic of every car , same distance same height same camera.

[FJR1300]

How critical is it for the heads to be on the same plane, as long as the three axis are at 0* on each head?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[SunTzuAOW]

This is the reason i suggested to take a pic of every car , same distance same height same camera.

I was going to, but some people didn't want their rides out there. :black_eyed:

[ReggieB]

Hey, I know they probably didn't do well (OK, I know they didn't at all) but Tom had mentioned that there would be some K40 "defusers" out there, I thought. If so, how'd they do?

[BestRadarDetectors]

Hey, I know they probably didn't do well (OK, I know they didn't at all) but Tom had mentioned that there would be some K40 "defusers" out there, I thought. If so, how'd they do?

Was not alerting to any guns..... We then came to the conclusion that the unit was bad and we stopped testing it.

[patsy1099]

There have been a few requests at RDF want to see these results after hearing about them. Not sure how admin over here wants to handle these requests since I am sure they will continue. I have posted a link over there to this thread. I know there is a RALTEC section over there (RDF) now but I didn't think it was my place to copy/paste these results without first checking how you guys feel about the best way to present these results.

[Yellowcab]

There have been a few requests at RDF want to see these results after hearing about them. Not sure how admin over here wants to handle these requests since I am sure they will continue. I have posted a link over there to this thread. I know there is a RALTEC section over there (RDF) now but I didn't think it was my place to copy/paste these results without first checking how you guys feel about the best way to present these results.

In an email between XYD and I, we agreed to post testing results on one forum, not both so that there will be one discussion about the testing. If there are discussions in two separate locations some members may miss important information and discussion about the testing. We also agreed to allow linking to the other forum.

When the other members of RALETC's bans on RDF are reversed, we can post a future meet's results on RDF.

[patsy1099]

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Would it be best to post the link in a thread, in the raltec section, that said "testing results", and then pointed back here? Because otherwise people tend to ask the question in various threads/posts and I can see having to paste the link multiple times.

[Yellowcab]

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Would it be best to post the link in a thread, in the raltec section, that said "testing results", and then pointed back here? Because otherwise people tend to ask the question in various threads/posts and I can see having to paste the link multiple times.

Yes, sounds like a great idea.

[patsy1099]

Look I'm not the RALTEC secretary, unless it pays a lot or includes free equipment! j/k

Ok here it is:

http://www.rdforum.org/showthread.php?t=33680&p=444776#post444776

[ECMExpert]

DALA #5 has not been recorded or seen by any laser jammer manufacturer.



NOW that it has, is ALP going to address the issue???

[ECMExpert]

Was not alerting to any guns..... We then came to the conclusion that the unit was bad and we stopped testing it.

OR it just flat OUT didnt work as intended :)

[BestRadarDetectors]

NOW that it has, is ALP going to address the issue???

We plan to retest # 5 at the next meet next month sometime.

[RigToFly01]

Here is the head set up for the front for all my runs. We did a couple runs with the previous setup and Yellowcab and BRD both looked at my heads and said they were off. We adjusted them to this. I know it's been said before but I will say it again. Your heads must be LEVEL and TRUE. Even a degree here or there will Kill you with the DALA guns. Take your time on the install. I am going to redo the mounting of the front heads at some point to make them more sturdy and pothole proof.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2u94h1s.jpg

Here is the head set up for the rear for all my runs.

http://i61.tinypic.com/11t4kld.jpg

I said I was going to post some Passport Max results. I don't think there is a need to make a chart. Here is what I learned.

1. On all runs the MAX only alerted when the shooter was aiming FCM.

2. The Max never alerted on rear shots.

3. When the MAX would alert on FCM there was a small delay behind the ALP. I would say it was a beat. ALP ALERT *PAUSE* MAX ALERT

4. No Alert at all with the DET Comapct 2.

5. There were times when the MAX would alert on something other than FCM but it was more than halfway through the run. It was probably the shooter lifting up a little. I count this as no alert since you would be toast.

If I was parked next to RedRocket before we would head back to start the run, I would hear the V1 alerting to the run going on in front of us. The Max was silent.

I will do a video next time. I forgot my video camera this time. I hope this is useful.

As this was my first full meet, I had a great time. It was really nice meeting new people and seeing others again. I want to make it to the next one to retest the DALA #5. On the next meet I am going to bring the wife's 9500ix and see how it does.

On a positive note, I am now the proud owner of 3 LIDAR guns. :)

[specifics]

We plan to retest # 5 at the next meet next month sometime.

My install WILL be done by then.... Hoping to get it tested and do that review....

[licwid]

Did 8.15 fix the garbled alert issue on some guns?

Also, I would love to see some lock time testing on a no veil and then veiled car to see if it buys user any reaction time

[BestRadarDetectors]

FYI... Spent some time Beta Testing new firmware today against DALA # 5 and did 15 Runs all JTG against my ALP Dual in the CTS. Might need to do a little more testing after getting all results back to AL but I have no doubt the next firmware update will have this fix.

[Holla]

FYI... Spent some time Beta Testing new firmware today against DALA # 5 and did 15 Runs all JTG against my ALP Dual in the CTS. Might need to do a little more testing after getting all results back to AL but I have no doubt the next firmware update will have this fix.

Thats what Im talking about--WOW you guys rock and are damn fast at updates :)

[Veil Guy]

Did 8.15 fix the garbled alert issue on some guns?

Also, I would love to see some lock time testing on a no veil and then veiled car to see if it buys user any reaction time

Appreciate that request myself. I would like to see some tests of jammer alone and the jammer+veil runs. These tests ate almost never done. I suspect a lot more JTGs where PTs where on e before.

VG

[awj223]

Appreciate that request myself. I would like to see some tests of jammer alone and the jammer+veil runs. These tests ate almost never done. I suspect a lot more JTGs where PTs where on e before.

VG

I want to try this if there's a test out here on the west coast. Ideally, I'd do the following runs:
1. ALP off, no VEIL on plate
2. ALP off, with VEIL on plate
3. ALP on, no VEIL on plate
4. ALP on, with VEIL on plate

I am really curious about case (2), which corresponds to the situation after I JTK. If VEIL is too good, I might have to remove it from my plates, because I do NOT want JTG performance without the jammers (which I would think would increase my chances of getting pulled over and inspected).

[spankyaf]

I would love to see a motorcycle at one of these events. Should be a great candidate for Veiling. :)



VG

I'd like to try that test out on my ride although given my jurisdiction more than the bike would have to "blacked out"

[savedbygrace1226]

Do one in Central Florida and I'll bring my bike.
I went out to get a baseline before I hopefully apply veil in the next few weeks and it was brutal. It is a lot easier than I thought it would be to get a reading and I have a black bike with matte black helmet.

[spankyaf]

Do one in Central Florida and I'll bring my bike.
I went out to get a baseline before I hopefully apply veil in the next few weeks and it was brutal. It is a lot easier than I thought it would be to get a reading and I have a black bike with matte black helmet.

Yup it's a lot easier than most would think. While we offer a thinner target we also are a taller target ... I wonder sometimes if we should mount two heads stacked

I'm going to use the 3m film on a number of the perpendicular surfaces on the bike and black out any reflections on my person. I have to think we can get down to some serious distance

[melbVt]

I wish that the Aussies could get a meet running

[BestRadarDetectors]

I wish that the Aussies could get a meet running

The Aussie's from time to time do get together and do some testing. Why not go into the Australian section and try to start a new meet?